Yes, it's Greg Steiner, Brad's long lost son . . .
A shoulder injury guarantees that your training will be painful, assuming you can train with an injured shoulder at all. Anyone who's experienced it will confirm this. In my clinic, I treat shoulder injuries and other similar symptoms far more often than anything else among athletes. And often, these strains, tears and bruises leave permanent damage.
Rob, a big guy who owned a gym in Ireland, came to my clinic with a typical complaint:
"Something's wrong with my bench press."
"What?" I asked.
"I can't bench! It hurts so much. It also hurts when I do overhead presses and barbell curls. I can't even pick the bar up off the racks before squats without shoulder pain."
What was his problem, other than the idiocy of perceiving that there's "something wrong with my bench press" as opposed to there's "something wrong with my body."
A case of which came first, the bench press or the ache.
I asked him.
"I don't know," he replied, and it was a typical answer for patients complaining of the same problem as Rob. Rob had injured his rotator cuff, and he was suffering because of a series of mistakes.
His first mistake was exercise selection. Rob is generally very conscientious when it comes to technique, but his injury was caused by the overhead press . . . [NO, it wasn't caused by the overhead press, it was caused by the overhead presser and the technique he used. Givin' the Press a bad name in a subtle way ain't good!]
It's better to do bench presses, they don't put as much stress on the shoulder joints as the overhead press. [Bullshit]
The situation was exacerbated by improper technique in pullups, which Rob had been doing for a while. He had followed someone's advice to relax his shoulders at the bottom position to "stretch" the muscles. Oops, this was his second mistake.
Hey, I remember a guy going so far as to recommend dropping into a full, unbraced loose hang on a chinning bar and repeatedly bouncing at the bottom to "stretch out" the shoulders. It's rarely the exercise at fault, it's almost always the exerciser and/or the bozo offering advice for a fee. Money. Quite a deal. We make Earth a hell for it. Ain't we sweet and evolved.
Rob continued to bench press, even though his strength in the exercise had declined due to his loss of control and stabilization of the bar. At the time, he experienced a "strange sensation" when pressing, causing him to writhe on the bench, trying to engage other muscles to complete the movement. This only made matters worse.
Ya figure?
Finally, after even simple barbell curls and returning the bar to the rack after squatting began to cause pain, he decided to see a doctor. But by then, the problem had already become chronic.
Shoulder problems are common, and too often seeing a doctor is delayed until these injuries (attributed to the athletes themselves) begin to interfere with training. The most common injury is to the shoulder blade, sometimes to the acromioclavicular joint (ACJ) at the end of the collarbone and shoulder. Less commonly, the sternoclavicular joint, where the collarbone connects to the chest, is injured.
Let's take a look at the RMP first, and if I can't convince you not to injure your RMP in the first place, I can at least tell you when you should see a doctor and what to do if an RMP injury has already become one of the wounds you received in "battle."
What does a person feel when they injure their rotator cuff, and what is it anyway? Answering these questions in reverse order, I'll say that the rotator cuff is a group of muscles that, in most anatomical positions, externally rotate the shoulder. External rotation of the shoulder, for example, occurs during the movement known as the "backhand" in tennis. It's precisely rotator cuff injuries that punish fools who do exercises incorrectly and teach others to do the same. Baseball pitchers also subject these muscles to tremendous stress at various points in the pitch.
So, what are the symptoms of being so fucking stupid you put poundage increases ahead of your own physical wellbeing, ruin your body's ability to lift more in the future and call this insanity dedication? Well, it starts with being born an idiot, feeling inadequate as a "man" and soon turns into a self-destructive fear-based blah blah blah . . .
First of all, you should be wary of pain that occurs when bench pressing. The pain is "out there," deep down, and you can't pinpoint exactly where. Pain also occurs when pressing behind the neck. Remember that any press behind the neck or any pullup behind the neck is extremely dangerous, even for healthy shoulders. What's the point of "better isolation" if you could end up with such an injury that you'll never be able to body-build again for the rest of your life.
Also, pay attention to any pain that occurs when you return the bar to the rack after squats, and if your arm feels "dead" afterwards. Barbell curls can also injure your shoulders. When doing shoulder presses, you might feel something in your shoulder catching painfully on something else, and you can "cheat" the pain by turning your arm one way or another. Sometimes, just holding a dumbbell at your side while relaxing your shoulder slightly and lowering the dumbbell a couple of inches can cause pain.
Try this test:
Lie on your back, arms at your sides, as if you were being crucified. Have a training partner hammer nails, no, wait, don't. Bend your elbows 90 degrees so your fist point toward the ceiling. Then, keeping your elbows still, lower your fists to the floor - first down, then towards your head.
Chances are, one of these movements will feel uncomfortable at best, and at worst, you won't be able to touch your fist to the floor at all.
Another test:
Try crossing your arms in front of your face. Elbows level with your mouth. Elbows higher, palms lower. Check for pain at various stages.
Finally, the last test:
Try to reach your wallet in your back pocket, and then try to move your arm up your back.
So, do you have a problem with your shoulders or not?
Any of these symptoms could indicate muscle stiffness or a muscle tear. Other tissues may also be damaged. Generally speaking, these symptoms can occur for a few days and then resolve in anyone, but if they persist or you experience severe pain, this indicates a serious problem.
In this case, too, we need to remember the fundamental and basic rules. And let's finally use these words in their true sense. "Fundamental and basic" should be translated as "indispensable" and not "too trivial to bother with" - regardless of the context in which these words are used and regardless of what we're talking about, whether it's food, breathing, or proper training.
The main prescription is . . . REST. Even if that means giving up your favorite exercise for a while. Ice, pressure points, and then rehabilitation and preventive exercises like L-flies and lying arm rotations (light arm circles while lying on your back on a bench, with a very light dumbbell). See a doctor if the problem persists. Healing can be measured by a return of strength, an increase in natural range of motion (without writhing or flinching), and finally, a reduction in overall pain.
Small rotator cuff muscles can cause persistent, mild pain or even prevent you from doing certain exercises. Both of these scenarios can be avoided IF you have the courage and fortitude to do what needs to be done, and to avoid what you know you shouldn't.
Enjoy Your Lifting!



I've noticed a trend lately of trainees trying to blame the press for cuff injuries, and advising not to press due to pain and potential for injury causation. I think in some of these cases the injury was inaugurated by the bench press, then if pressing hurts after the fact, blame the press, this partially due to prejudice against the press in favour of the bench press. Those who witnessed the changeover of press emphasis to bench press emphasis, such as Bill Starr and Ken Leistner, saw that once the bench press became trainees' main pressing movement, rotator cuff injures went from almost nonexistent, to an epidemic. Starr's original Big Three was to have the press, squat and power clean, but due to pressure from popular training culture he changed it to the bench press. I've seen guys with the telltale surgery scars over each delt from cuff injury operations, likely from bench press focus, overuse and obsession. Those who trained through and during the history of press emphasis changing to bench press emphasis witnessed the rapid and widespread occurrence of cuff injuries. Dr. Ken got to the point where he didn't consider the barbell bench press a good exercise, due to the shoulder impingement caused by internal rotation of the humerus from gripping the bar. If I could start over I would emphasize standing presses, and for pectoral work use parallel/neutral grip incline presses of some kind, and dips if possible. I might not barbel bench press at all, in that scenario. If I did I would approach it as an assistance exercise for standing presses. But getting away from that pronated grip for any kind of bench-based pressing, and using dumbbells or some form of log bar for probably incline presses, would be the way to go for me.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Starr want to go with Incline Bench for the pressing movement in his original Big Three? I think the lack of incline benches in gyms earlier forced him to go with the flat bench.
DeleteYeah, the bench press. It's the "Arnold" of weight lifting. Say bodybuilding and a newb sees Arnold. Say weight lifting and a newb sees "bench press."
I guess Starr and Suggs wanted the press to be the pressing movement in the 5x5 Big Three, but it didn't happen, as Starr explained:
Deletehttps://startingstrength.com/article/the_olympic-style_press
I am often asked why we made the bench press our primary upper body exercise when we both [Starr and Suggs] believed that the overhead press was the superior lift to improve shoulder girdle strength. It was because of all the negative comments in the media about the dangers of the overhead press to the lower back and we didn’t want to have deal with two exercises that were controversial. We already had the full squat, which was also under fire due to the false information generated by Dr. K.K. Klein’s so called “research” on the subject. We quickly discovered that we had our hands full defending that lift which we knew was the cornerstone of the entire program. We wanted to substitute the incline bench for the overhead press, but alas, that was not possible. In the late sixties, incline benches were as scarce as hen’s teeth. We only had one at the York Barbell and after talking with coaches from high schools and colleges, we found that they had none. Zero. So it didn’t make any sense to include an exercise that couldn’t be done without purchasing another piece of equipment. We settled for the flat bench because every school had benches, even if they were only those in the locker room.
It must be hard for young guys to believe, but there really weren't that many incline benches around in gyms. I mean, gyms were way different. Imagine a fairly-well equipped home gym of today and there's your commercial gym of yesterday. I like Starr's take on using BOTH the Bench and the Press:
Delete"The overhead press is used in place of the bench press in certain circumstances. It serves as a change of pace from the bench press. Once the athlete reaches a certain level of proficiency he should not do bench pressing every workout. Rather, he should overhead press once a week and bench press twice. This allows the muscles involved in benching to rest a bit, but they still receive stimulation as a result of the overhead pressing movement. Sort of a case of having your cake and eating it too."
I wonder what percent of gyms nationwide had a leg press back then. Not many.
I like that "if I could start over" thought. If I could start over I'd learn how to bench in a way that didn't create any problems. And I'd use a bar with various angled grips when needed, as well as dumbbells at times, along with benching less often but making it really count for doing something when I did.
DeleteOr, I'd just not do any "chest-pressing" at all and stick with overhead pressing alone.
I haven't regularly benched at all really since 2015. I just woke up one day and got tired of it and since it wasn't doing anything to help increase my standing press, I just didn't see the point in continuing to train it. Over the years, once in a while I'd go on a specialized 2 to 3 months of training it just out of curiosity and to break up my monotonous daily routine but I never trained it longer than that.
ReplyDeletePlenty of great legendary lifters here on this blog that never seriously trained the bench that ended up pressing standing what most guys would be happy just to bench. Bob Simpson is the best example of such a lifter, pressing 530 at 223 or thereabouts. One of the strongest pressers of all time and he is my main inspiration for pressing!
My favorite ways to press are seated presses without back rest, incline pressing at 45 degrees, behind the neck standing as well as seated without a back rest, one arm dumbbell press and good old fashion military press. Arnold focused way too much on his chest and biceps when he should have concentrated more on his back and legs. Ironic that Arnold cites Reg Park as his idol when Reg had terrific symmetry with exceptional and functional strength to back it up while Arnold went in the opposite direction.
Because of Arnold nearly every one of us who began lifting in the 1970s focused way too much on the flat bench press and bicep work in the beginning. Thankfully I started prioritizing the standing press over the flat bench press a few years later. Just became sick of workouts starting with 8-10 sets of flat bench pressing and putting so much emphasis on how much I could bench press. We would have been so much better off focusing on the back and legs and ditching the Weider publications which had neophytes trying to emulate 20-25 sets chest workouts done by enhanced experienced bodybuilders.
DeleteArnold's heeeeeuge chest and bis. The July '68 cover of Muscle Builder magazine. I guess my aesthetic tastes were pretty immature back then when I was . . . pretty immature. The bench press hasn't been around all that long and floor-type pressing was nowhere near the popularity of today's bench press. You gotta wonder how it got to be such a big deal.
ReplyDeleteHey I have been guilty of that as well! Then I stumbled upon your blog and my views on lifting were completely reshaped and I have drastically changed my training all thanks to reading your blog. From reading so much about the military press and the bench press I'm convinced that the reason the bench press became as popular as it is now, is due chiefly to two people, Doug Hepburn & Paul Anderson.
ReplyDeleteThey made such improvements on their standing press in addition to setting records from doing bench that soon every competitive Olympic lifter or bodybuilder started incorporating them. Reg Park & Marvin Eder really solidified the bench press as an important lift to be trained for bodybuilders as well as for the Olympics, especially since Marvin competed in both. I think from then on it was destined to take over. This is just my thoughts on why the movement grew so much and I believe all these articles on the blog featuring these lifters firmly support this notion.
I was never hurt by any behind the neck movement whether it was pull-downs, pull-ups , or presses, however, after not performing each exercise for years I developed shoulder pain probably because of not enough pulling or behind the neck movements. Performing pulls and presses behind the neck kept my shoulders supple and mobility was better. Trying to develop the mobility needed to perform these exercises again after years of not doing them. Always put more value on the standing press over bench press even starting out. Barbell to the front or behind the neck standing (best version) or seated, single arm dumbbell, dumbbell presses, alternating dumbbell presses, iso hold dumbbell presses, etc. standing preferred over seated because of difficulty and core activity seems to be an overall better lift for getting in shape or functional strength while bench press certainly develops more mass because of allowing much heavier poundage’s. Behind the neck movements should be done with sub maximum poundages imo to keep shoulder mobility.
ReplyDeleteBehind the neck press actually makes my neck, shoulders and upper back feel better than the regular military press. It also gives me better flexibility in those areas just as you said. I always do a set of 5 with 100 lbs. right before I do my squats because it give my upper back a great stretch and thoroughly warms me up for getting into the low bar position.
DeleteFor my back I like to do trap bar shrugs, trap bar deadlifts, weighted pull ups, weighted hanging shrugs and various rows. For legs I keep it simple by just doing squats and good mornings. Once in a while I'll do front squats but I rarely do them. Then I like doing a variety of overhead pressing as I have previously mentioned. After doing all of the above, my chest and arms take care of themselves so I don't do things like triceps extensions, curls or bench of any kind.
Best of luck to you on your efforts to regain your lost flexibility. Try incorporating hanging shrugs with regular dead hangs. I do both daily and my shoulders have never been as strong or flexible as they are now.
Hello Anon, would you mind describing the iso hold DB presses you mentioned? I use the one DB press extensively, mostly with thick-handled DBs. I haven't had any luck with trying one DB low presses, or lockouts or holds. l use the one DB push press, to try and get strength from the eccentric portion of each rep, but no other variation has panned out for me.
DeleteYou press one of the dumbbells to lockout and hold it there while pressing the other dumbbell to lockout then lower the other and alternate each arm or you can hold one dumbbell for all the reps in the lockout position while you press with the other before switching arms. You can also do this with all your presses like bench or incline bench.
DeleteGood stuff! Is this fella doing the first version you mentioned? You can see in the later reps how much the "overhead" arm is working. That's a great variation of the two-DB press. I am officially changing the name of this exercise to the "Giveitaname Dumbbell Press".
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGPfi5DXJg0
These are similar to "Ab Straps" and can be used for hanging from a bar.
ReplyDeleteA guy could rig up something real simple with a DIY version.
https://thestrongneck.com/en-ca/products/ez-decompressor-dead-hang-harness
Something like Brad Harris' Ab-Originals. I've thought how with Ab-Originals and an overhead pulley and weight stack a crude homebrew version of a Nautilus Pullover circa 1972 could be duplicated. Even if not as effective as a Nautilus, this simple setup might be well worth it to put together. It could probably be improved with modifications and add-ons.
DeleteAnybody here ever tried doing Arnold's 50 rep pull up routine? It took me an hour and a half to get 50 reps. Afterwards I was sore for a week straight and I'll never do that again. It's funny that I can lift heavy on a daily basis six days a week without any significant soreness but whenever I try some high rep bodybuilding routine, I get ultra sore muscles. Just goes to show that my body hates useless, bloated tissue and responds better to low reps.
ReplyDeleteHey Jeff!
DeleteSure, I tried chinning layouts like that one. Set a total-rep goal and just keep going back to the chinning bar over and over. I aimed at 25 first, then 35, and it got easier till I got to 50 total in not too-too much time, then a 5x5 with weights added worked okay.
Arnold's stuff is sort of just plopped down in front of our eyes and it becomes near-gospel, no matter the results or lack of same. Weird how that kind of power over others works.
Switching, either way, from higher to lower, or from lower to higher reps makes me pretty sore too. On a lighter note, we may lose strength as a result of aging but we retain the ability to create some hellish DOMS at times.